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Lauren Cardillo: Are there some like life hacks that you've learned about balancing everything? 

Danielle Rowell: You just have to do it. Whatever you need to do to make it work, you just gotta make it work. There are some days I don't have all the answers. There are some days where I'm just like, oh, please, Lord, gimme strength for today.

I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I'm going to figure it out. So I think it's just whatever is needed in the moment, I just have to make it happen, and that's what I do. 

Intro: Welcome to the Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ podcast Unstoppable Stories with your host Lauren Card. 

Lauren Cardillo: Today I'm joined by Danielle Rowell, who is a cybersecurity guru, expert who also Native Virginian and a Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ grad.

Welcome. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me. We love having you. So the first thing that stuck out to me just because I was a communications major, is how did you go from like communications to cyber? Because generally those worlds do not meld. So what was it in your head that said I should do this?

Danielle Rowell: Well, you know, I, so all throughout college I was a part of the student activities Council. Where we put on large events for the entire campus, and I went to OD Dominion University, so shout out to ODU. Uh, and, and so I just, I loved putting on events and prior to, to going into college just to, I, I loved just doing things like that, just putting together events.

And so I said, well, I'll just go into communications and I'll be an event planner, and life will be great. And, you know, as I started to get, you know, to junior or senior year, I said, um, I don't know how lucrative this is going to be for me. And unless I'm like, you know, the best event planner, wedding planner, I, I said, I think I need a little bit more stability.

And so it wasn't until after I graduated was trying to find a job that I saw a, uh, what was then UMUC. Which is now U of GC. Um, I, I saw the commercial advertising for cybersecurity. And so my mom, you know, she'd worked her whole entire professional career in the government besides her military time. Um, so I said, you know, I, I don't think I can do this and, and hopefully get a government job.

And, and so that's how I made the switch. And so like getting my, my master's in cyber, you're right, is a. Big difference. Uh, and you know, in terms of the coursework from communications, but as I really got into cyber, like as my career, having that communications background really helped me because when you talk about cybersecurity to like different stakeholders who are not techie, right, or you're talking to your business partners, you have to be able to communicate in non-technical speak.

And so that really helped me. 

Speaker: Was there a technical part of it that really appealed to you though? 

Danielle Rowell: Yeah, so when I was going through the the coursework, I thought that I was gonna be the best penetration tester ever because I was like, oh, I'm about to crack all these passwords, get into everything, and.

Then I was like, no, this is, this is not for me. This is, this is not for me. Um, you know, and so I kind of settled on, um, you know, more, more so the information assurance. I was kind like the, the term back, right? Where the governance risk. Um, so, so that's kind of where I landed in terms of, of cyber. But I've been all through cyber, it just software development, all of that.

Speaker: W why does it speak to you? You know what I mean? Why is, why is it so intriguing to you? It, it just 

Danielle Rowell: changes. It's, it's so dynamic. I mean, the landscape me from, I would say from year to year, but sometimes it's literally from day to day. You, you never know what threats are gonna come your way, what new incidents are gonna come your way.

The technology is constantly evolving. I mean, it, it's one of those things that keep you on your toes. And because there's so many different domains within cybersecurity, I. I mean, you could, it's not like, you know, your hr, no, no offense, any of my HR partners where it's kind of like that one track. I mean, there's so many different disciplines that you could go down and if you wanna try something new, then you can do that.

The world is yours at that point. And so that's what I loved about it so much. 

Speaker: How hard was it to find your first job? 

Danielle Rowell: Hmm. I'll say it was a little difficult at first. Um, I ended up being an executive assistant right out of college. Um, and so, but I was still like getting my master's degree, right? So that was fine, right?

But then afterwards I said, okay, I'm ready to, to dive into the world of cyber. And so I knew this reverend for my church. He said, Hey, you know, I have a, I think I have a job for you. I know a buddy. You know, you have to go and interview with them and you know, and just do your best to see what he says. And so when I went to go interview, it was for a risk analyst position, and he was like, look, I'm basically just doing this for my friend.

If you could get your security plus certification in 30 days and come back to me, I'll give you a job. It was basically one of those like, okay, you know, I, I did my due diligence. I don't think you're really gonna get this start. You know, I'm never gonna hear from you again, type of thing. I took it as a challenge because that means you doubted me.

You had no faith in my abilities, you know, I told you this what I wanted to do. I went and got my master's and so I came back in 30 days with my certification and he said, wow. I guess I have to give you the job. And so that's how I got the job and that's, I worked really hard. 

Speaker: I learned he wasn't expecting it, obviously.

Right? No, not at, not at all. How long, how long usually would it take someone to get that certification? 

Danielle Rowell: Uh, it, it just depends right on, on how motivated and, and focused you are. I was able to pass on my first attempt within 30 days. Um, but I've known people who have done complete, you know, one eighties and it may have taken them about, you know, maybe four, six months on average, but that's.

I mean, it's, it's not that hard of a certification to pass in the first place, but still not having any type of security background, it can be challenging, 

Speaker: I'm sure. Right? Yes. That sort of seems like it, it follows a trend in your career where, you know. You're not in rooms where people are talking about what you're doing, you know, or you can't, they think you're younger than, you know, younger than you are.

Sort of what, what, what has kept you going or changed people's expectations? 

Danielle Rowell: I think just my drive and my determination. I'm, I'm really focused and once I set my mind to something, like I'm, I'm going out there with all I got, I'm putting everything into it. Like I said, when I got the risk analyst position, there's a lot that I didn't know.

Like I'd never done the job before, so it was a lot of long, you know, long days, long nights, weekends. I, I had to study hard because my, my colleagues were already, you know, leaps and bounds ahead of me, and so I really had to, I had to catch up, right, and I had to prove myself that I was, that I was able to do the job, that I could stand on my own.

I didn't need anyone holding my hand. So, you know, not only was it proving to other people, but it was really proving to myself that I can do it. And just Tony, or tuning out all of the naysayers. 

Speaker: Was there a funny story about someone not knowing you were the person in charge or the person who knew what was going on?

You know what I mean? Like, can't be her. 

Danielle Rowell: So, um, you know, it's no secret that when people see me a lot of the times they think, you know, I'm 12. At least nowadays I'm getting, you know, 18 to 21. So it's a step up to where, you know, we used to be, I guess. Um, so a lot of the times they're say, are you, are you the intern?

Or you know, is it, uh, bring your child to Workday or. It there A lot of times people were joking, but some folks were serious. So, so yes, there, there have been times where, you know, people have come into mes and said, okay, well who's leading? And I'm like, me. They're like, oh, okay, well, go ahead. 

Speaker: There's part of that that has to be fun for you.

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Danielle Rowell: It it is, it is. Yeah. They, they don't expect it. 

Speaker: Without giving me any specifics. So you, you end up with a government job correct. And sort of just end up in different agencies along the way. I mean, how did you sort of plot your career if there was a plan, you know? 

Danielle Rowell: Yes, yes. Uh, so like I said, I started off as executive assistant at DHS and then made my way to the Coast Guard working in the cyber command of the contractor.

Um, and then I got my first break into the government working in the IC community. Um, one of the three letter agencies. I'll leave it at that. Uh, and then almost about two and a half years ago, I left the IC and I came over to OPM, uh, as the Chief Cybersecurity Engineer, and then recently became the system for OPM.

Speaker: So for people out there who don't speak the same language, what does that mean you do every day? Oh, 

Danielle Rowell: so as a Chief Information Security Officer, I manage the cybersecurity program, which means I'm responsible for all our applications, our asset, the infrastructure, basically keeping the bad guys out. And for those who are very familiar with the OPM breach of 2015, I'm trying to prevent another one, 

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Danielle Rowell: I'll leave it at that.

Speaker: So how do you, how do you do that? I mean, you're talking about round the clock surveillance to make sure that doesn't happen. Right. And balancing a family with that, because that can't be a, an easy thing to do. 

Danielle Rowell: Oftentimes, I don't know whether I'm coming or going and, and even, you know, today during this, this podcast, I am working off of three hours of sleep.

Uh, you know, the, the little one is sick and, but work still has to be done. Right? Uh, the attackers don't stop and neither can we. Right? But also being mom, I love being a mom, and my family comes first, so I, I do the best that I can to, to balance. My husband's great. He, you know, he always steps up and it helps out, you know, where, where I need it.

Um, but I, I definitely make it a priority, put my, my family first. Um, but my, my career is definitely important as well. 

Speaker: Is, is there something you hope that your is it's a son, correct? The 8-year-old, 

Danielle Rowell: so I have two girls, eight and six. 

Speaker: Okay, nevermind. You're girls. Yes. Seeing, seeing you not get sleep, seeing how hard you work, is there something you hope that they're sort of getting, you know, from you through, you know, osmosis or whatever?

Danielle Rowell: You know, it's funny 'cause I have caught them in my office, uh, from time to time that when I'm, uh, able to, to work from home, I've caught them in my home office, they'll put on my headset and they will pretend like they are in meetings. I can hear them using the language, you know, you know, Hey James, you know, da da da da.

And it's just, it's so funny to me, but I love to see that. Right? And it's teaching them that confidence, right? And so, you know, what I'm trying to instill is them that you can do anything that you want to. You can be anything that you want to. You stay focused, you stay determined. Hard work, grit, and dedication.

It goes a long way. And so that's what I really hope that they're taken away, you know, from, from seeing Mommy, um, but also knowing that rest and self-care is important, which I'm very bad at. Um, you know, and so I'm trying to get better, but I wanna make sure they understand that as hard as you work, you need to rest as well.

Speaker: Was there a point where you had to, I mean, you've had a very successful career, but was there a point where you said, I'm gonna take this job instead of this job because it helps me balance life more? 

Danielle Rowell: Yeah. That was, you know, my, my move to OPM was just that. I had to reach a point, um, within the IC to where I couldn't participate in afterschool activities.

You know, I wasn't getting home, uh, in a timely fashion. I was very tired. I had very long commute. Um, and the job was just very, very demanding. So I said, Hey, you know, they have a remote position available. And the, uh, former CIO, Melvin Brown was also A-U-N-G-C alumni. Cool. Uh, he is the one that hired me over.

Um, so I was very blessed and thankful to, to be a part of the OPM team because it gave me that flexibility that I needed to, you know, be a wife and a mom, but still, you know, do the things that I love. 

Speaker: Totally get that. What, what do you like best about being in a leadership role? Because. You are obviously in that.

So what is it that you like? It's the people. It's the people. 

Danielle Rowell: Um, I couldn't do what I do. I couldn't be successful without them. You know, I, I always look at or think of myself as a, a servant leader, right? It's, it's not about working out orders, you know, it's not about, oh, I have all these people to do whatever I want them to do.

It's really about serving the people and meeting them where they are and leading them and inspiring them to make a difference, right? To want to do better, not only professionally, but um, personally as well. Right. You know, like when, when they're going through hard times, when their families are going through hard times, it's being that human right.

Having that emotional intelligence to step in. Hey, are you okay? Do you wanna talk about it? Yeah. I know we're at work, but we're still humans. Right? And we need that, we need that connection from people, right? And so, and so, that's what I love. I just, I love the people and I love the folks that I work with.

They're awesome. Um, and it makes the job better. 

Speaker: I'm betting part of your communication background also helps, you know, and, and, and, you know, not to say that people are not, don't communicate in leadership, but you know what I'm saying. Right. That makes you better to communicate the message. 

Danielle Rowell: Yes, yes. And I, I recently, uh, became, I see up certified, uh, as a, a life coach.

And so that has helped as well. Um, you know, being able to. Uh, there's a way in which as a coach, that you're able to connect with people, um, that many folks don't have. And so going through that training and I think I just have it naturally, that really helps too. 'cause I'm able to connect in a different way.

Speaker: What's the, what's the number one piece of, um, advice you find yourself giving people, you know, as a life coach or in your office? Is there. Something that you're able to impart to them. 

Danielle Rowell: You know, my, my faith is, is what leads me. And I understand, you know, that that may not be something for, for everyone.

Right. Um, but you know, I, I like to tell my folks to just be who you are. Be kind, be considerate. And if you do, you know. Or faith-based, put your faith first, trust in God, in whatever that, whatever it is that you want to do, and know that he's going to lead you and he will never leave, never leave you nor forsake you.

Uh, so that's kind of the advice that I, I like to give to folks. 

Speaker: So it's your mantra. Yes. But I'm gonna guess it's also in your mantra, is stay out of comfort zones. Yes. So tell me how you sort of figured that one out or why that's so important. 

Danielle Rowell: I don't think that I necessarily figured that out. It was more so I was pushed into it.

I've had a lot of bosses and mentors and sponsors who have said, Danielle. You should do this thing. And I said, no, I should not do that thing. Absolutely. I I should not go and, and brief the director as this very, very junior person. I, I don't think I should. Oh, you, you got it. And oh, by the way, we're not gonna go with you either.

You're gonna do this by yourself. So I've had lots of opportunities for growth as they would tell me, uh, to be able to get outside of my comfort zone. I think, you know, looking back, I needed that because if I didn't have that, I'm not certain that I would be where I am today. So my whole career has been about stepping outside of my comfort zone, rather I did it on my own or I was pushed and 90% of the time I was pushed.

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Speaker: I'm thankful for it. So, sort of set that scene for me. If you're going into a meeting. Or you know, it's a zoom, whatever, and all of a sudden you're the one in charge, you open the door and you're the one who has to like impart the info to people who are superior to you in the structure. You know what I'm saying?

Sort of what, what's going through your head? What's going on? 

Danielle Rowell: Um, I think now I've. I mean, I think everyone's probably still gets nervous, but for me it's, you know, well, I, I know the information, I know what I'm talking about. I need to give them the information in order to make a decision. Right. I know they have limited amount of time, so it's really, you know, what does the bottom line up front?

What do they need to know? Get it out there and let's have a, a dialogue. But it's also important to know that you, I don't need to know everything, right. If I don't know an answer, I can say, that's a great question. Let me get back to you once I talk to my folks. You know, and that's okay. It took me a long time to learn that I don't have to know everything, right?

So I have smart people. Um, so, so now it's just, all right, Danielle, you go in there, you say who you gotta say, you get the decisions that you need. Sometimes the decisions I want, sometimes they're not. But you know, it's all part of the game. ¸é¾±²µ³ó³Ù.Ìý

Speaker: What's most surprised you about your current, your current position?

You know, what is it that when you got there, you thought, huh? I did not know that. 

Danielle Rowell: I would say, you know, coming from the cyber or chief of cyber engineering to the chief of remission, security officer role, I mean, I wasn't involved in all the day-to-day details. Right. I wasn't involved in. All of the, uh, conversations with the executives, right?

And, um, I didn't know where all the bones were buried. And so now, you know, I'm getting pees like, Hey, do you remember. When, you know, the previous is to put this into place and I'm like, no, let's talk about it. Can you, can you tell me about it? Right. So it's just kind of understanding that my ature has widened Right.

Instead of being, you know, kind of focused. So now I'm always seeing like an entire program and, and to I understand that I have, you know, people there to, to help. Right. But it's, you know. I'm responsible for, for leading them, right? For them being successful, and ultimately the success of the program. Right?

So there's a lot of things that I'm learning each and every day, which I'm pretty sure I'll get new surprises, you know, later on this afternoon, I'm sure. 

Speaker: And then you'll take a nap. And then I'll take a nap. 

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Speaker: Sometimes people, you know, in a, I don't wanna say a higher position, but in a position like you feel compelled to know everything.

You know, like I have to know it all. But yet, I mean, reading through the interview notes for this, that was something you said really pointed. Like, I'll find out other things. I don't have to know everything. 

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Speaker: You know, and that's, um, I don't think that's something everybody realizes. 

Danielle Rowell: Yep, absolutely it did.

I wish I would've learned that earlier on in my career, would've saved me a lot of stress and anxiety. Uh, but I'm, I'm better for it today. 

Speaker: You mentioned just a little. Little back that you're also life coaching now because you don't have enough to do, right? 

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Speaker: So what, what made you wanna be a life coach, a mentor?

What made you want to, you know, I don't wanna say give back in some way, but what made you wanna do it? 

Danielle Rowell: So I would say a couple, maybe like five years ago now, uh, I was afforded the opportunity to work with a leadership coach and she, I. It's just awesome. God rest her soul. Now she has passed on. Um, but she really helped me reframe my perspective and my thinking on things.

You know, I was, I was struggling with a particular stakeholder on like really how to reach her and communicate with her and engage her. She really helped me reframe that and, and see things through a different lens. And I said, wow. Like, where were you earlier in my career? Uh, and so at that point I was like, I, I wanna do this.

Like I, I can do this. Um, and so it, not too shortly after that is when, you know, I started my journey. Um, and so now I focus on, uh, career and leadership development. 

Speaker: And, and why, why is that so important to you? 

Danielle Rowell: Yeah. Developing the, the next set of leaders is, is crucial, right? And, and leaders that have empathy, that have emotional intelligence, right?

It's not always about what you know technically, but how well you can inspire people. Get the best out of people. Right? Like that's, that's what leadership is really all about, right? You no longer really own the projects. You're responsible for other people's success, right? It's really helping them be successful is when you as a leader are successful.

And you know, it kind of goes hand in hand with the career development. 'cause you know, I look back over my career and see how I was able to progress rapidly. And, you know, of course there were stumbles and pitholes and minefields along the way, but like helping folks to navigate that. Um, you know, I, I think that there's, it's like the, the, the hidden secrets that aren't talked about when it comes to, you know, progressing your career that I wanna impart onto others.

Speaker: So, I know this is a hard question 'cause you don't know, but are there things left for you to learn? Like, are there areas where you go, I really need to. Find out more about this to make me a better leader. 

Danielle Rowell: Absolutely. I mean, if you reached a point where you've stopped learning, then you should probably step outta the leadership role.

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Danielle Rowell: Uh, because every, every day is in your venture. Every day you should be learning, you know, something new. You know, I strive to be 1% better than the day than, than the day before. Right. But that comes of learning, like what's the newest technology, right? What do I need to know about how to better communicate with my, with my people?

Did I say something yesterday that unintentionally, you know, made of, caused a distraction or harm or. You know what, whatever. And, and even in the home, how can I be a better mother? I mean, we're always learning. So, you know, I, I don't for folks to say that they, they've achieved everything and, and they don't have anything to learn, I would question that.

Speaker: It's a constant evolution. 

Speaker 4: It is. 

Speaker: Is there something you wanna do, um, a role or something? In the future, you know, that you sort of have your sights on or some area that you'd like to get into? 

Danielle Rowell: I would say I definitely want to be, uh, I guess it comes from like childhood. I've always stood up to gonna be like the, the billionaire entrepreneur one day.

I still have a lot of learning. Right. Uh, before that happens. A lot of money to make. Um, but right now, you know, I'm, I'm navigating, you know, this, this CISO role as, as this is new for me. Um, you know, of course you should always be thinking, you know, five years, you know, uh, you know, ahead of what does that next role look like for you?

Um, so I have some things in mind. Um, but really just focused on, you know, how do I navigate this, this new journey that I'm currently on. I. 

Speaker: Yeah. 'cause I have to imagine it's incredibly busy and challenging and it's sort of, let's get this. Yes. And then we'll, you know, make, make our, make our next step. So your mom was government worker her entire life, you said?

Danielle Rowell: Yep. Yep. So she spent 11 years in the Navy, and then after that, uh, she retired from the US Coast Guard. 

Speaker: So what does she think of your whole like, path, um, from, you know, communications, cyber, you know. Helping lead an agency. 

Danielle Rowell: Oh, she is very proud. Very, very proud. Um, you know, she started out in telecommunications, you know, way back in the day when it was like plugging in the, you know, the switchboard and all that stuff.

So I, I couldn't give you the details, but, but yeah, so, you know, I like to think that I, I followed in, um, you know, her, her path and she ended, you know, doing it asset management. So. And then I, and I actually, you know, was a child that she brought to work every, you know, bring your daughter, bring your sons a workday.

I did summer internships with her. Right. So I felt like it was just breading. 

Speaker: I was gonna say, how did that feel when you, you know, what did you learn from that? What did you learn from that, sort of, that experience with your mom? 

Danielle Rowell: Uh, professionalism, rank and file, because I worked around a lot of military folks.

You know, I, I learned, uh, that there's a order right in, in the way in which you have to do things right. And I think a lot of, I'll say millennials, um, this day and age may not have that. Um, type of perspective or even like work ethic. I, it's, it's, I feel like I was almost a, a baby boomer, right? That I just happened to be born in the millennial age 

Speaker: because you, you learned things from her.

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Danielle Rowell: Yes. A, 

Speaker: a little different. You didn't want to go like Coast Guard way? 

Danielle Rowell: No, you know, I never had an interest to going to the military, although I am very, you know, thankful for those who served and gave their lives. Um, but military was not for me. 

Speaker: It was a little too much order.

Um, were there particular mentors that you had along the way that you see what they did for you today and you think, wow, you know, that was, that was so necessary and maybe I, I wasn't always listening, but now I get it, you know, that sort of thing. 

Danielle Rowell: Oh, yes. So many, so many. Like the, the example I gave earlier about, you know, being pushed to, to brief one of the directors, you know, as a very, very junior officer, right.

Um, you know, even, you know, and even recently, you know, I, they were pushing me to take all these leadership roles, you know, which has prepared me to step into the CO role. So, so yes, my, my mentors, my sponsors, I mean, they have just been incredible and I'm just so thankful for, for all the feedback, the guidance, the hard conversations when I needed to hear them.

Yes, it definitely is, is what helped shaped me into the professional that I am today. 

Speaker: One of the places you said you worked were one of the, you know, the three alphabet, you know, security agencies. Um, this is a silly question, but I have to ask it. Since you're so good at communicating, is it like we we see in Hollywood, or is it, is that world completely, it's really much more humdrum than that?

I would say for me it was, 

Danielle Rowell: mm. It wasn't that exciting how he was much more exciting, although, I'll tell you a funny story. Uh, so we had interns, you know, every summer. And this one particular intern, um, we, we played a little joke on him, which I'm glad he had a sense of humor 'cause it was hilarious. Um, we told him that there was a helicopter pad, you know, on the top of the building.

That when you got a call, you had to like grab your go bag and go right away. And you never knew like where you were going. They didn't tell you anything until you got there. But she just had to go. And so very 

Speaker: Jack Ryan. 

Danielle Rowell: Very Jack Ryan. Ryan. Right, right. And so I had a pager, um, because that's how my, my kids were like babies, you know, still in daycare.

So I, I, I had a pager and I like left it by his desk on purpose and it went off and I was like, has anyone seen my pager? He was like, it's here. It's beeping. It's beeping. And I said, oh my gosh, I gotta go. I was like, has anyone seen my Go Bagg? And I had one of my other colleagues like, it's right here, Danielle.

And like, we'll see you when we see you. And it was the weekend, so, you know, it was Friday, I see. Until Monday anyways. And so I grabbed, just grabbed my books. Mother bang and went out the door and went home. But on Monday he was like, where did you go?

I'm telling you I have to kill you. I mean, we end up telling him it was H hilarious. He was a good brother about it though. 

Speaker: Are there some like life hacks that you've learned about balancing everything? You know, are there some tips out there that you figured out along the way? You just have to do 

Danielle Rowell: it. You just, you just, whatever you need to do to make it work.

You just gotta make it work. I don't, there are some days I don't have all the, all, all the answers. There are some days where I'm just like, oh, please Lord, gimme strength, gimme strength for today. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I'm going to figure it out. I mean, there are some times where they're literally just laying on me and I'm, I'm working right.

Or there's some days where I'm like, you know what? I absolutely cannot work today because they need my complete and total attention. Right? And then I hand it off, um, because those are days that they, you know, I, I need to be, I need to be present, right? Um, so I think it's just whatever is needed in the moment, I just have to make it happen.

Speaker: And that's what I do. Danielle, thanks so much for joining us today. We loved having you on on Unstoppable Stories, and for folks listening or watching, don't forget to subscribe to us on your, you know, podcast channels. Thanks so much for being here. See you next time. 

Danielle Rowell: °Õ³ó²¹²Ô°ìÌý

Speaker: ²â´Ç³ÜÌý

Danielle Rowell: so much. It was a pleasure.